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Men Should Not Be Forced to Pay Child Support...
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Vizzini
Lobstah


Joined: 08 Jan 2007
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Men Should Not Be Forced to Pay Child Support...

...so long as abortion on demand is legal.

They did not create a baby, they simply created a lump of tissue. There is no baby after intercourse, after fertilization, or after implantation. When is there a baby? Only after she chooses to make a baby all by herself with Her Body and Her Choice. Holding Men equally responsible for creating a baby in this environment of abortion on demand is logic defying. It is actually impossible for a Man to make the choice to create a baby. A Man could impregnate a million Women and a baby might never be created (or so we're told) - how on earth can he be considered equally responsible for the existence of a baby?

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Post Wed 30 May, 2007 11:00 am 
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Vizzini
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Darn it. Where are Naran and charlotte? I really want them to call me an idiot and then make themselves look silly when I help them display their sexism and/or warped logic.
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Post Fri 01 Jun, 2007 11:19 am 
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Roadrat
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I agree with you , As long as it is a womens "right to choose" and the man has no say , then let her pay for it.

bill

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Post Thu 07 Jun, 2007 3:48 pm 
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wanderer
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What if the mother is a pro-life proponent? You still think the dad should be allowed to be a deadbeat?

You talk about being a man, being a father and taking responsibility Viz. Though posts like this only undermine your sincerity. A man needs to be a man and do his part to raise his child, regardless of what societys laws are.

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Post Fri 08 Jun, 2007 10:34 am 
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Vizzini
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Joined: 08 Jan 2007
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quote:
Originally posted by wanderer:
What if the mother is a pro-life proponent? You still think the dad should be allowed to be a deadbeat?


How is not paying for someone else's unilateral choice, being a deadbeat?

Paying for the results of another adults unilateral decision is often referred to as charity, helping etc. not living up to an obligation.

Our law says there is no baby until the female decides to make a baby through her body and her choice (thats why she can kill it - even if the father is pro-life). The law then says that Men are equally responsible for creating a baby. That is idiotic. Without one standard the law becomes logic-defying and loses credibility.

quote:
Originally posted by wanderer:


You talk about being a man, being a father and taking responsibility Viz.



Do you commonly accept responsibility for the unilateral choices of other independent adults? Should the law require that from you, under threat of jail?

When a female makes the unilateral choice to have an abortion is the Man held equally responsible? Of course not (!!) he had no control over the decision. Why is he held equally responsible when she makes the opposite (and equally unilateral) choice?

Her Body, Her Choice, Their Responsibility? That is feminism for you.
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Post Fri 08 Jun, 2007 11:02 am 
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wanderer
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I'm talking about moral rights and wrongs. Something you clearly struggle with.

Even if a man didn't have a legal obligation to take care of his child, he would have a moral obligation.

Your "proposal" (even though I know you're not serious and just trolling), would only decrease the quality of life for children and make men even more irresponsible about sex than they already are. Yep, that's a noble goal.

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Post Fri 08 Jun, 2007 11:50 am 
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Vizzini
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quote:
Originally posted by wanderer:
I'm talking about moral rights and wrongs. Something you clearly struggle with.


I have a degree in philosophy, but yes, the subject of morality is always a challenge.

Answer this moral question for me. Is it ever moral to hold someone responsible for the unilateral choices/actions of another independent adult? Simple enough question.

quote:
Originally posted by wanderer:


Even if a man didn't have a legal obligation to take care of his child, he would have a moral obligation.


Based on what exactly? The fact that the Father "made" the child when he had sex? DNA? Do you think sperm donors have a moral obligation to support all of their children? Do you think boys who've been raped should be morally or otherwise obligated to support a baby that was born following that rape?

quote:
Originally posted by wanderer:

Your "proposal" (even though I know you're not serious and just trolling),


I'm completely serious.

quote:
Originally posted by wanderer:

would only decrease the quality of life for children and make men even more irresponsible about sex than they already are. Yep, that's a noble goal.


What do you mean by being irresponsible about sex exactly? Sex doesn't make babies, only the unilateral choice of a female does. If a baby is created in less than ideal circumstances, that isn't the Man's fault (only the female creates a baby).

Is a Man equally responsible for an abortion taking place when a Woman makes that unilateral choice? Why is he queally responsible for the opposite choice?

Personally, I don't think modern females need Men to help them with the results of their own independent choices and actions.
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Post Fri 08 Jun, 2007 12:26 pm 
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wanderer
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quote:
Answer this moral question for me. Is it ever moral to hold someone responsible for the unilateral choices/actions of another independent adult? Simple enough question.


Storks don't bring babies to houses viz. Smile
When a man makes the decision to blow his load in a woman, he knows fully well what the consequences might be. He has made his choice to have a baby as much has the mother. There is nothing "unilateral" about it.

So no, I don't think it's moral to hold someone responsible for the actions of another. I don't believe in guilt by association. Nor group blame. None of which applies to a man impregnating a woman.

---------

Back to the discussion - rape. Rape isn't about choice. It is about force. A woman should not have to bear a child that has been forced on her. If however a woman decides to bear the child, the rapist is most certainly obligated financially to support the child. Why? Because it was his choice.

Sperm donation - the donor gives their sperm with no strings attached. The recipients only receive the sperm if they accept this arrangement. That is their choice.


quote:
What do you mean by being irresponsible about sex exactly? Sex doesn't make babies, only the unilateral choice of a female does. If a baby is created in less than ideal circumstances, that isn't the Man's fault (only the female creates a baby).


Tis is why I know you're not serious.


quote:

Is a Man equally responsible for an abortion taking place when a Woman makes that unilateral choice?

No, he's not. He is however, if he made the decision with the woman. You do know many women have abortions because of pressure from men right? (Probably not)


quote:
Why is he queally responsible for the opposite choice?

Again, back to the birds and bees. If he plants the seed, he's already accepted that this seed may take and grow.


quote:

Personally, I don't think modern females need Men to help them with the results of their own independent choices and actions.


Assuming you're actually talking about independent choices and actions, sure.
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Post Fri 08 Jun, 2007 2:55 pm 
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Vizzini
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quote:
Originally posted by wanderer:

Storks don't bring babies to houses viz. Smile
When a man makes the decision to blow his load in a woman, he knows fully well what the consequences might be.


That is a perfectly good point. The consequences of that action might be the creation of a worthless lump of tissue which can be removed for about $400. The consequences of her subsequent and unilateral choice to not remove that worthless tissue but instead to create a baby from it, are much more serious. The Man should pay for half the cost of removing the tissue. Only the female can create a baby (her body, her choice).

quote:
Originally posted by wanderer:


He has made his choice to have a baby as much has the mother. There is nothing "unilateral" about it.


Really? How many times have you made this choice to have a baby? My brother made this choice once, he got a girl pregnant because he wanted to have a baby. Can you believe it though? She got pregnant but no baby ever came out of her (!!) only a worthless lump of tissue came out at planned parenthood.

The act of creating the baby or not creating a baby is unilateral (her body, her choice). The act of creating a worthless lump of tissue is shared. He risked helping create a lump of tissue that can be removed for $400.

quote:
Originally posted by wanderer:


Back to the discussion - rape. Rape isn't about choice. It is about force. A woman should not have to bear a child that has been forced on her. If however a woman decides to bear the child, the rapist is most certainly obligated financially to support the child. Why? Because it was his choice.


That isn't the question I asked you. Should boys who are raped by adult females be obligated to support a baby if the intercourse results in a pregnancy which the female rapist chooses to continue? Are you aware that boys have been raped and forced to pay child support? Are you aware that current law supports forcing male rape victims to pay child support? Do you agree with that?

quote:
Originally posted by wanderer:

No, he's not. He is however, if he made the decision with the woman. You do know many women have abortions because of pressure from men right? (Probably not)


There is no way that he can "make the decision with the Woman." It is her body and her choice. He can try to persuade and pressue every which way (for or against) - its still her body and her choice.

Why would your standard for responsibility be any different when she makes the opposite unilateral decision? Would he have to make the decision not to abort (to create a baby) "with her" in order to be equally responsible?

There are prominent feminists who agree with me.

"If a woman makes a unilateral decision to bring a pregnancy to term, and the biological father does not, and cannot, share in this decision, he should not be liable for 21 years of support ... autonomous women making independent decisions about their lives should not expect men to finance their choice."
-Karen Decrow, former President, National Organization for Women
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Post Fri 08 Jun, 2007 3:30 pm 
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PaulaJane
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Joined: 22 Jun 2004
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Rape / Abortion

This is a subject that has bothered me immensely... ever since I voted in the equal rights thing. You see, back in my day, if a guy wanted it, you had to give it. Maybe not quite that way... Let's say, when your husband wanted it, there was no 'headache' excuse.

I had absolutely no idea that when the vote came as a done deal.. What I had voted for was the right to kill my baby. Or, to have it killed.

Pro Choice to me equals... If a woman says NO, then she should not be forced to have sex. To me, that is where it stops!

So, what I voted for was to give a woman a right to have her baby slaughtered. Talk about being a responsible voter?? I was dumb, stupid, and naivve to the political flight.

All women should have the right (the "choice" to say NO) and not be forced to have sex. I must of been all wrapped up in me at the time.

Oh well...life goes on.. and on and on...


quote:
Originally posted by wanderer:


Back to the discussion - rape. Rape isn't about choice. It is about force. A woman should not have to bear a child that has been forced on her. If however a woman decides to bear the child, the rapist is most certainly obligated financially to support the child. Why? Because it was his choice.


About the above quote.. Sometimes I wonder if perhaps a woman that has been raped can be compared to Mary (Bible). I wonder if it is Gods' way of giving her a child to raise for him. Just a thought...
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Post Fri 08 Jun, 2007 4:40 pm 
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Vizzini
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Re: Rape / Abortion

Yeah I never really understood rape as a very good reason to slaughter a perfectly innocent baby either. Now, slaughter the rapist... (nah, couldn't possibly, we're much too civilized for that).

I really respect your honest and reasonable comments about abortion.

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Post Fri 08 Jun, 2007 4:47 pm 
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Roadrat
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Re: Rape / Abortion

quote:
Originally posted by Vizzini:
Yeah I never really understood rape as a very good reason to slaughter a perfectly innocent baby either. Now, slaughter the rapist... (nah, couldn't possibly, we're much too civilized for that).

I really respect your honest and reasonable comments about abortion.


I'll never understand liberalism, They will march and protest for the right to kill an unborn child on one day then march and protest to stop the execution of a murderer the next. crazy

bill
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Post Fri 08 Jun, 2007 7:01 pm 
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PaulaJane
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Joined: 22 Jun 2004
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Rights

You know Bill, you have a valid point there...

I'll never understand liberalism, They will march and protest for the right to kill an unborn child on one day then march and protest to stop the execution of a murderer the next.

bill

There is a name for that sort of belief/behavior, but it has slipped my mind right now. Is it feminist? or something in that catagory.

I have a continuing argument within myself frequently. I've read what we can expect in society now, and how we are fast heading down the highway of the New World Order, etc..

It is natural for me to try and convince my daughters to not have children. It is better to adopt, because look what we are heading for...

Then, on the other hand... what does God have on / in his mind as to my daughters? I guess what I am saying is that I really have no right to encourage my girls to not have children. It's a constant fight within me that is going on. Probably drive me insane. Well, if I'm not already there anyway. LOL

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Post Sat 09 Jun, 2007 11:25 pm 
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wanderer
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Either viz believes a fetus is a worthless lump of tissue and is now a feminist, or he is arguing a strawman again. Anyone want to help clarify?

Males getting raped by women that in end in pregnancy? Must be a virtually non-existant occurence...though no, the male shouldn't be responsible for supporting a child born out of such relation. Since it's an every day occurence in your eyes, perhaps you could you link me to an example of a male having to pay child support for a woman who raped him?


quote:
About the above quote.. Sometimes I wonder if perhaps a woman that has been raped can be compared to Mary (Bible). I wonder if it is Gods' way of giving her a child to raise for him. Just a thought...


Do you believe in free will PJ? Or do you believe god has a plan for everything and our fates are already written?
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Post Mon 11 Jun, 2007 10:27 am 
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Vizzini
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quote:
Originally posted by wanderer:
Either viz believes a fetus is a worthless lump of tissue and is now a feminist, or he is arguing a strawman again. Anyone want to help clarify?


It's about consistency in the law. The law belives it is a worthless lump of tissue. Therefore the law cannot reasonably say that the Man was equally responsible for the creation of a baby (since obviously he only created a worthless lump of tissue - the baby was created through the unilateral choices and gestating of that lump of tissue by the female).

quote:
Originally posted by wanderer:


Males getting raped by women that in end in pregnancy? Must be a virtually non-existant occurence...though no, the male shouldn't be responsible for supporting a child born out of such relation. Since it's an every day occurence in your eyes, perhaps you could you link me to an example of a male having to pay child support for a woman who raped him?


I never came close to implying that it's a common occurence. Obviously it's rare but it does happen. Unlike what you claimed earlier, responsiblity for the child has nothing to do with consent to have sex. Judges have no choice but to make male rape victims pay child support because the law says the child has a "right" to support from both parents. If you jerk off in a cup (not that you would) and a woman comes along and uses it to impregnate herself, you will be ordered to pay child support.

"In every case that has addressed the issue, the court has held that a man who was underage at the time of the conception of the child, and was therefore a victim of statutory rape, is nonetheless liable for child support. Typical of the reasoning in these cases is San Luis Obispo County v. Nathaniel J., 50 Cal. App. 4th 842, 57 Cal. Rptr. 2d 843 (1996).
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Post Mon 11 Jun, 2007 11:24 am 
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